page 1 1 Tuesday, 15th July 2008 2 (10.40 am) 3 ALISTAIR McCOURT (called) 4 MR MARTIN: My Lord, the next witness is Mr Alistair 5 McCourt. 6 Examined by MR MARTIN 7 Q. Mr McCourt, I hope you have a copy of your finalised 8 Inquiry statement. I think it has been agreed that you 9 would prefer me to read it on your behalf. 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. I shall pause from time to time to ask you specific 12 questions. If I just begin reading at paragraph 1 in 13 the first person: 14 "I am employed as a senior safety consultant at 15 Central Safety Services, Ancaster Business Centre, Cross 16 Street, Callander. 17 "I hold two diplomas in safety. I obtained one 18 diploma through the British Safety Council and the other 19 through the Institute of Safety and Health. I am 20 a registered safety practitioner and a Chartered Member 21 of the Institute of Occupational Safety and Health. 22 From about 1978 to 1989 I was employed as a fireman. 23 I then went to university to do environmental health but 24 left after one year. Since about 1991 I have been 25 employed in health and safety. page 2 1 "I was employed for about 18 months as an assistant 2 safety adviser with RGC in Fife. This was an off-shore 3 fabrication yard, in other words, it built oil rigs. 4 During this time I obtained a NEBOSH certificate which 5 is a starting qualification for health and safety. It 6 was a three-month course which I successfully passed at 7 the College of Building and Printing in Glasgow." 8 Do you know at this stage, Mr McCourt, what NEBOSH 9 actually stands for? 10 A. National Examination Board of Occupational Safety and 11 Health. 12 Q. "I was then employed as a safety engineer at John Brown 13 Engineering, Clydebank I was employed there for about 3 14 years. During that time I was employed full-time for 15 about five weeks doing a diploma at the British Safety 16 Council in London. I was then employed for about a year 17 as a senior adviser at North Lanarkshire Council DLO 18 (Direct Labour Organisation). I also obtained a diploma 19 in Occupational Safety and Health, mainly at Stevenson 20 College Edinburgh which took one day a week over 2 21 years. 22 "In 1996 i set up my company of Central Safety 23 Services which is a company that specialises in 24 construction engineering safety. A company will contact 25 us and we will provide them with a health and safety page 3 1 consultancy package, which includes competent safety 2 policy or management systems and then an agreed level of 3 service, which can include risk assessments. 4 "In 1998/99 I set up Hospitality Safety Services 5 which is a company that specialises in leisure, 6 dangerous sports and retail. 7 "In 2003 I set up Generating Safety Solution which 8 is a company that specialises in renewable energy. We 9 provide safety advice for wind and hydro power stations. 10 These companies have now been merged to form CHG Safety. 11 I employ four full-time staff and about 8 or 9 12 associates." 13 Could I please have 12203. I do not seem to have 14 a screen that works but never mind. 15 I will just read on, Mr McCourt: 16 "I have been shown a letter dated 25th February 2007 17 to Mr Marshall, ICL Tech, Grovepark Mills, Glasgow from 18 A McCourt Health and Safety Consultant." 19 I take it that is the letter that you referred to? 20 A. Yes, that's correct. 21 Q. "About the beginning of February 2000 I was approached 22 by a Mr Marshall from ICL Tech. I do not know his 23 Christian name or his title at that company. He 24 telephoned me and said that they had been issued with an 25 improvement notice by HSE with reference to their powder page 4 1 coating process under the COSHH Regulations. An 2 improvement notice is issued under the Health and Safety 3 at Work Act to instruct companies to make improvements 4 in the area specified in the notice. It is different to 5 a prohibition notice, which stops a process straight 6 away. Powder coating is where metal components are 7 heated, placed in powder, which is melted on to the 8 metal and is allowed to cool and cure. This coating is 9 to protect the metal from the elements and to cut down 10 on corrosion." 11 Could I please have 12233. 12 Can you recall, Mr McCourt, if this was the 13 improvement notice which resulted in Mr Marshall making 14 contact with you? 15 A. I think I went to see Mr Marshall. He did show me the 16 improvement notice but I couldn't confirm that that's 17 the actual one. 18 Q. If we look down the front page, we can see that it was 19 served on ICL Tech Limited by Mr Cameron Adam who was 20 one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Health and Safety, 21 various details and then about halfway down the page it 22 is said: 23 "The reasons for my said opinion are hazardous 24 substances have been used and generated in the premises 25 without a suitable and sufficient assessment of the page 5 1 risks to the health of employees from exposure to said 2 substances and of the steps that need to be taken to 3 meet the requirements of the above legislation." 4 Is that consistent with what you understood the 5 improvement notice to be requiring when you were first 6 instructed? 7 A. What Mr Marshall told me it was one COSHH assessment 8 that was required and that was simply for the powder -- 9 Mr Marshall had informed me that it was one COSHH 10 assessment that he required and that was to do with the 11 powder coating process and not a general enquiry of 12 COSHH assessments. 13 Q. COSHH being control of substances hazardous to health as 14 opposed to other hazards such as machinery or something 15 of a practical nature? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Returning to your Inquiry statement at paragraph 16: 18 "Mr Marshall asked me if I could do a COSHH 19 assessment. This stands for the control of substances 20 hazardous to health. Around 16th or 17th February 2000 21 I attended at Grovepark Mills where I met Mr Marshall. 22 I did ask him if they had their own way of dealing with 23 COSHH assessments and I recall that they didn't have 24 a format. I then asked for their company's health and 25 safety policy. From memory, I don't believe they had page 6 1 a health and safety policy. This is a document where 2 a company sets out its commitment to health and safety. 3 It details the health and safety responsibilities of 4 various persons from management down to their employees. 5 It details specific health and safety arrangements and 6 these would cover issues such as risk management, fire 7 arrangements, first aid and COSHH arrangements, 8 depending on the company's requirements. 9 "I asked to be shown round the place, which is my 10 normal working practice, to view the activities and 11 discuss these with them as I accompanied them. I would 12 have explained the safety requirements, which would go 13 further than maybe what was specified in the improvement 14 notice, for example, there might be more than one 15 substance that would require COSHH assessment. I would 16 also have discussed requirements for general risk 17 assessments such as noise, manual handling and display 18 screen equipment as per noted in the above-mentioned 19 letter. 20 "I went round all the premises, which I think was at 21 least three floors and a basement. 22 "I remember the basement was dark and dingy. There 23 was a wee room in the basement that was use for 24 moulding, welding or a spray booth. On the ground 25 floor, I recall there being plastic curtains which led page 7 1 into the powder coating where there was maybe two or 2 three ovens but I didn't see what fuelled the ovens. It 3 was a very hot environment. I was concerned with all 4 the heat given the powder and sources of ignition there. 5 "We then went into an upper area, where there were 6 cardboard boxes, packaging and a wood working shop. 7 I asked if HSE had visited there and Mr Marshall said 8 that they had. 9 "I went to an upper floor. I noticed a huge amount 10 of wooden moulds. My main concern was the amount of 11 combustible material in the factory and that these 12 wooden moulds were a future fire risk. I noticed that 13 there were gaps in the floorboards and if there had been 14 a fire, then smoke and fire would have spread up through 15 the floor boards. In my opinion there were a lot of 16 concerns about safety." 17 If may pause there, Mr McCourt, clearly when you 18 were talking about wooden moulds and potential fire 19 risk, gaps in the floor boards, potential risk of smoke 20 and flames coming up, these are quite different to the 21 potential examination of hazardous chemicals which was 22 the result of the improvement notice and the COSHH 23 requirements. 24 Was that a normal practice for you when going round 25 premises to look out for other hazards not necessarily page 8 1 directly related to what you were being instructed 2 about? 3 A. It is quite normal when I go into a company for the 4 first time to ask them to see round the premises because 5 it gives me a better idea on the scale of safety issues 6 that they may have to deal with. 7 Some companies have good systems in place and a good 8 knowledge of health and safety and other companies 9 don't. So it's important from our point of view to 10 establish early on what the company actually is dealing 11 with and what precautions may need to be put in place. 12 Q. Returning to your Inquiry statement, paragraph 24: 13 "I left that day and informed Mr Marshall that I was 14 going to bring in a firm of occupational hygienists who 15 specialised in COSHH, dust in the atmosphere and noise, 16 given ICL Tech discharged into the atmosphere that is in 17 the spray booth. Mr Marshall seemed happen with my 18 decision to bring in a firm of occupational hygienists." 19 What exactly Mr McCourt would a firm of occupational 20 hygienists be expected to do in a situation like that? 21 A. I think when you go into a workplace where there's 22 potentially dust, vapours or fumes in the atmosphere 23 it's impossible to undertake a COSHH assessment unless 24 you do a personal exposure monitor, which is the 25 exposure to people working in the factory would have to page 9 1 that dust or fumes. So the occupational hygienist would 2 come in and take background measurements of dust and 3 fume levels and then put monitors on individual bodies 4 to calculate how much exposure each individual body has 5 been. Once you've got the results back that then gives 6 you the information you require to carry out go COSHH 7 assessment. 8 Q. So as the name implies the occupational hygienists are 9 looking at direct potential risks to the health of the 10 employees, such as fumes or dust or whatever? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. As opposed to perhaps indirect risk like the risk of 13 fire or the risk of injury from machinery and so on? 14 A. They are specialists in that area. 15 Q. "About a week later I returned with Gerry Mooney from 16 Associated Health Services who specialise in 17 occupational hygiene matters. They employ occupational 18 hygienists, doctors and nurses. They measure the fumes 19 in the atmosphere and monitor how much people on a site 20 are exposed to the fumes. I think it was Mr Marshall 21 who showed Gerry Mooney and I around. We were generally 22 shown the lower working areas and I am not sure if we 23 were shown the upper floors. In terms of occupational 24 health it would only have been the working areas that 25 were of concern. page 10 1 "It was agreed that I would provide them with 2 a quote regarding health and safety and that Gerry would 3 submit a quote regarding occupational health." 4 Could we have 12203, again, please and if possible 5 the three succeeding pages. Perhaps if we can just 6 expand the first page 12203, I think as you have already 7 noted, Mr McCourt, this is the letter you sent dated 8 25th February 2000; is that right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. We can see that you were addressing Mr Marshall, 11 thanking him for the opportunity of providing advice and 12 then in the second paragraph you say: 13 "Having talked to both you and Bill I feel that the 14 following are the main areas which require to be 15 addressed ..." 16 Who was Bill? 17 A. He was obviously somebody else I'd met but I've no 18 recollection of a surname -- 19 Q. Somebody on the ICL side -- 20 A. Somebody ICL. 21 Q. -- he was not your colleague. 22 A. No. 23 Q. Then we can see that you set other under various 24 headings a health and safety policy management system, 25 the requirements of the Health and Safety at Work Act page 11 1 1974, risk assessments, again the requirements of 2 various regulations that you set out. You then deal 3 with the nature of the service that you can offer and as 4 you are about to tell us in your statement you provide 5 a quote of the cost. 6 You then set out other matters such as other 7 services provided entitled, "Risk assessment, site 8 inspection, accident investigation and auditing, 9 construction design and movement regulations", and 10 others which you set out there. 11 Then you see reference on the third page to 12 co-operation and information and refer to: 13 "Employers now have legal responsibilities to 14 consult their workforce on all matters relating to their 15 health and safety and provide information to them which 16 may affect their health or well being whilst at work." 17 You refer to training, you refer to fire safety and 18 then at the bottom of that page you refer to compressed 19 gases and you say: 20 "This would cover any LPG which is used for both 21 your forklift trucks and heating on the manufacturing 22 floor. Detailed arrangements need to be in place for 23 the safe delivery, storage, use and removal of gas 24 cylinders." 25 Then you turn to compressed air and, finally, some page 12 1 general comments regarding the quote which you are 2 giving. 3 If I carry on, paragraph 27 of your Inquiry 4 statement: 5 "This is the letter that I then issued. Normally 6 I would issue a standard letter offering various options 7 of consultancy level. However, on this occasion, 8 I issued a more detailed letter because I felt that the 9 company had nothing in place in terms of managing health 10 and safety. 11 "I felt that on my visits that Mr Marshall hadn't 12 appeared to believe what I was telling him with regards 13 to all the assessments required, that is that areas of 14 the workshops were noisy, methods of manual handling and 15 machinery required assessing. At that time the Fire 16 Precautions (Place of Work) Work Regulations 1997 had 17 not long come in, which required employers to assess the 18 risks of fire within the work places, that is sources of 19 ignition and combustible substances, and how fire would 20 spread within a building and how to prevent it 21 spreading. Fire loading with timber and combustible 22 materials in these premises was a major problem. 23 "As per page 2 of my letter, I advised that I would 24 charge £2,200 plus VAT a year to prepare a safety 25 management system. The Health and Safety at Work Act page 13 1 1974 requires every company with more than five 2 employees to have a written health and safety policy. 3 This has been expanded in the Management of Health and 4 Safety at Work Regulations 1999 with the difference 5 being that in the latter regulations, the company has to 6 monitor and review its own arrangements to ensure that 7 they are effective. 8 "A written health and safety policy would consist of 9 three parts namely: (1) a written general statement of 10 intent, which is a commitment by a company to 11 proactively manage health and safety. It is signed by 12 the most senior person in the organisation; (2) 13 a responsibility section which would detail the 14 structure of health and safety from senior level down 15 and detail what levels of responsibility are to 16 management and employees; and (3) arrangements are set 17 out for legal requirements and detail what the company 18 has to do to comply with the legislation. 19 "We would provide all forms and records in relation 20 to management of health and safety. We were offering 21 a management system and support to them to implement 22 this. We would, for example, for a fire prepare 23 a safety management system document detailing the 24 procedures and arrangements on how they would deal with 25 safety issues in order that they met legislative page 14 1 requirements. An example for a fire would be that they 2 had trained staff and how often an evacuation should 3 take place. This is different from a risk assessment 4 because a risk assessment is identifying a particular 5 risk. If they had wanted us to do a risk assessment, 6 then we would have done it. I have not included for us 7 carrying out risk assessment in this letter maybe 8 because I felt that money was an issue. I have noted in 9 this letter under 'Other services provided' that if 10 required we could conduct risk assessments. 11 "About a week or so later, I telephoned Mr Marshall. 12 He informed me that he did not wish to proceed any 13 further with our quote, the reason being that the HSE 14 had only required him to produce one assessment under 15 COSHH and that if he had to address all the matters 16 I identified then the HSE would have told him. I told 17 him that I was just pointing out the legal requirements 18 that the company had. In my opinion they should have 19 been dealing with all the requirements under the various 20 regulations and acts. I think Mr Marshall and 21 I approached things differently. The Health & Safety 22 Executive had gone in and addressed a complaint rather 23 than assessing the bigger picture in looking at their 24 health and safety policy. 25 "In terms of COSHH, we would have prepared page 15 1 a procedure detailing who was responsible for managing 2 COSHH, such as a senior manager or departmental manager 3 and what process they would go through, that is who 4 would undertake COSHH assessments, how often they would 5 carry out tests or assessments and how these tests would 6 be recorded." 7 I wonder if I can ask you about that, Mr McCourt. 8 COSHH relates to substances hazardous to health and we 9 know there were various substances on the premises which 10 fell within that category. 11 What are you suggesting would be the result of 12 a COSHH assessment? What would the senior manager or 13 departmental manager be required to do or what would be 14 stated in relation to his function and in relation to 15 the processes? 16 A. What would happen in a safety policy is the company will 17 set out how they intend to deal with all hazardous 18 substances and the arrangements to identify individual 19 departmental managers who would be responsible for 20 ensuring COSHH assessments had been undertaken and that, 21 where required, occupational hygienists may have come in 22 and done surveys, which again may in itself identify 23 a level of control measures (whether it be a local 24 exhaust ventilation, whether it be personal protective 25 equipment) and departmental managers would then be page 16 1 required to ensure that these measures were actively put 2 in place. 3 Q. So, for example, if one had a substance which was being 4 used in the process and once delivered it was, for 5 example, a liquid being stored in cans or bottles, would 6 the assessment take account of the possibility of 7 spillage or breakage of the container? 8 A. Not unless the breakage was within the workplace and 9 would actually represent a risk to employees. So, in 10 terms of the powder coating was the potential risk of 11 powder or the fumes coming off from the hot metal and 12 the powder, that would be the health issue for the 13 employees and we would then be looking to monitor and 14 control. 15 Q. If the material in its raw state was being stored in 16 premises and thus potentially in contact with employees, 17 it could be part of a COSHH assessment. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Once it has then been used, of course, whether in the 20 ovens or whichever other way, if it causes fumes, for 21 example, or dust, for example, then that is an obvious 22 matter to be the subject of assessment; is that right? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Thank you. 25 Paragraph 34: page 17 1 "My main overall concern was that management did not 2 understand the implications of the lack of safety 3 arrangements they had in place in relation to the 4 hazards within the workplace. My concern were the 5 presence of gases, LPG and bulk storage cylinders, spray 6 painting processes, powders, wood dusts and combustible 7 packaging materials and these to me were more dangerous 8 due to the construction of the building being mainly 9 timber and brick. 10 "My general opinion of the building was that it was 11 not a good building for the processes it was getting 12 used for. The contents of the upper floors were all old 13 timber moulds and when you looked at the floor below you 14 could see right through the floor boards to the floors 15 below. 16 "With regards to anything outside the actual 17 factory, for example, LPG bulk storage tank I didn't 18 look at this, I only looked at the areas within the 19 factory." 20 Mr McCourt, do I infer from that that you looked at 21 the LPG and indeed also there was natural gas pipework 22 within the factory? 23 A. I was shown round the factory and we discussed health 24 and safety on the way round with Mr Marshall but on the 25 tour of the factory he never took us out into the yard. page 18 1 The visit was restricted to inside the building. 2 Q. Were you shown LPG pipework and indeed natural gas 3 pipework inside the building? 4 A. No. The only LPG-type gas pipes I remember was the ones 5 that have previously been mentioned feeding the heaters 6 within the place there (inaudible). 7 Q. So that your attention was drawn to LPG because of your 8 noticing the heating system in the building? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that there was a bulk LPG 11 tank in a yard outside? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Risk assessments: 14 "We would have charged ICL Tech approximately £225 15 to £250 a day to prepare risk assessments. A risk 16 assessment would have taken us about two weeks. Had 17 I been asked to do risk assessments then I would have 18 gone around the building and identified all the hazards 19 and established what controls were already in place and 20 if any additional controls were required. An example 21 being for manual handling of a pallet we would have 22 noted what mechanical means they had such as a truck or 23 crane and whether they had trained staff to use the 24 truck or crane. 25 "Risk assessments are recorded onto a matrix, which page 19 1 identifies a hazard in terms of likelihood and severity. 2 Both likelihood and severity are considered before 3 allocating a risk a colour. I use red for a high risk, 4 blue for a medium risk and green for a low risk." 5 Do I understand that colour is then applied once you 6 have identified the likelihood and the severity 7 separately? 8 A. When we undertake a risk assessment matrix what we are 9 attempting to do is identify the significant hazards 10 within a premise or within a system, or an operation to 11 rule out the insignificant risks to allow the written 12 assessments the to -- the risk assessment matrix -- it 13 is very difficult without actually sitting and looking 14 at one -- the idea is it identifies significant risks 15 within the work area and we apply a colour coding system 16 to that and that allows the consultant doing the risk 17 assessment to focus on significant risks within the 18 workplace. 19 Q. I will carry on paragraph 42: 20 "I would prepare the risk matrix. This simply uses 21 colours to identify significant risks throughout the 22 premises." 23 I am assuming, Mr McCourt, that the reason for that 24 is that it is simple to understand and clearly apparent. 25 So if you see a red spot or whatever it may be, quite page 20 1 obviously that denotes the biggest risk or the biggest 2 hazard? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. "The risk matrix, I would use three columns. In the 5 first column I would identify an activity, in the second 6 column I would rate the risk of the activity in terms of 7 high, medium or low and in the third column I would 8 identify the potential hazards of the activity." 9 Am I right then that the colour coding would appear 10 in the second column? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. "An example being that in the first column I could note 13 an activity such as opening a pallet, in the second 14 column I would rate the risk for this as being high and 15 in the third column I would list the potential hazards 16 for this activity as being (1) slips, trips and falls, 17 (2) lacerations, (3) fire and (4) manual handling. 18 "In the written assessment I would use four columns. 19 In the first column I would again identify an activity, 20 for example, opening a pallet, in the second column 21 I would identify a particular hazard for this, that is 22 slips, trips and falls, in the third column I would 23 identify the existing control methods for that 24 particular hazard and in the fourth column I would 25 identify any further actions required for that hazard." page 21 1 May I take it, Mr McCourt, that the ultimate purpose 2 of that process is to identify any further actions which 3 are required to be taken to deal with the hazard and its 4 severity? 5 A. That's one of the reasons. The other reason is to 6 identify for the employees what control measures they 7 have to work to and then you've got any further actions 8 left for managers. 9 Q. "LPG. When I went round the building I saw LPG heaters, 10 which I have noted in the final paragraph of page 3 in 11 the above mentioned letter." 12 That is the passage we looked at a few moments ago. 13 "These heaters would be a source of ignition and 14 hazardous if not properly dealt with. ICL Tech needed 15 to have in place procedures for safe delivery, storage, 16 use and removal of cylinders. I would have included 17 this in our safety policy. I would have made 18 recommendations for ICL Tech to get rid of as many of 19 the cylinders as possible because this would be safer. 20 LPG is highly flammable and there is a potential for 21 cylinders to get damaged and leak when being moved. 22 This would be extremely dangerous when there would be 23 source of ignition from heating, et cetera. I would 24 have recommended that they store all new and out of use 25 cylinders to an external building in a locked facility page 22 1 such as a metal cage." 2 You are obviously talking in that paragraph about 3 portable cylinders? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. "I do not recall seeing a bulk storage tank. I have not 6 noted that I saw a bulk storage tank in my letter. Had 7 I seen a bulk storage tank I would have viewed this as 8 just being a big portable cylinder." 9 Obviously, it cannot be move around but are you 10 implying you would have assessed that and perhaps 11 recommended precautions for perhaps minimising the risks 12 related to the fixed cylinder? 13 A. It would have been treated the same as the electrical 14 system, if they'd been treated separately, the gas 15 heating system would have been treated separately. So 16 it would have been treated on its own merits. 17 Q. If we look at paragraph 3 of your letter -- that is page 18 12205, please -- at the bottom of the screen, you say: 19 "This would cover any LPG which is used for both 20 your forklift trucks and heating on the manufacturing 21 floor. Detailed arrangements need to be in place for 22 the safe delivery, storage, use and removal of gas 23 cylinders." 24 Obviously in that sentence, Mr McCourt, you do not 25 refer to the use of LPG in one of the ovens. Why is page 23 1 that? 2 A. This letter was produced almost as a tender for us to do 3 some work for them and trying to identify the areas that 4 we would have to look at. It wasn't an audit of the 5 premises under which I would have gone in to examine all 6 the systems within the building. 7 Q. You have referred to the forklift trucks and you 8 referred to the heating. Is that because, during the 9 course of your visit, the fact that LPG was used for 10 these purposes was either drawn to your attention or you 11 noticed it yourself? 12 A. It was because I'd have seen them. 13 Q. But you did not notice nor have drawn to your attention 14 the fact that LPG was used in one of the ovens? 15 A. It may have been mentioned but I certainly didn't see 16 the bulk storage tanks outside. 17 Q. If you had been instructed on the basis of this tender 18 letter, Mr McCourt, and you had been looking at LPG as 19 a topic as you have described, would that have included 20 looking at the fixed tank, the pipework, the use of the 21 ovens as well as the other things? 22 A. I would have set out in the same way as I've mentioned 23 the compressed gases, that there should have been 24 a written statement of examination for the full LPG 25 system, given that it is a pressurised system. page 24 1 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 48: 2 "At that time in terms of a risk assessment I would 3 have thought the supplier of the bulk tank, that is the 4 gas company, would have been responsible for the bulk 5 storage tank given the tank was inspected and tested by 6 the gas company providing the tank. At that time prior 7 to the explosion at the Maryhill Factory I might or 8 might not have included an LPG tank on a risk 9 assessment; it would have depended on its use. An 10 example being that if the LPG tank had just been used 11 for heating I would not have noted this on a risk 12 assessment. However, I might also have recorded the LPG 13 tank as having either a high or a low risk as. An 14 example being that there was the potential for 15 a forklift truck to reverse into it, which was 16 a potentially explosive situation, and that would put it 17 into a high risk. In terms of the pipework I would have 18 at that time not noted the pipework on a risk assessment 19 because it was underground, was not normally associated 20 as part of work activities and I thought was the 21 responsibility of the gas suppliers. However, since 22 this explosion, I would now view this as a high risk and 23 I would ask the company what the underground pipe was 24 made of, for example, plastic or metal. If it were 25 metal then I would advise the company to speak to the page 25 1 gas supplier because metal can corrode." 2 Does that mean, Mr McCourt, that your attitude to 3 underground LPG pipework and, indeed, a fixed LPG supply 4 system including a tank and pipework, that your attitude 5 has changed based on the experience of this particular 6 disaster? 7 A. I think I'm certainly more aware of it. I think I would 8 like to make it clear that when I made this statement it 9 was taken by the Procurator Fiscal and this last 10 paragraph was obviously responding to questions from the 11 PF. Prior to giving that statement I had already met 12 with the HSE and had the same discussion and my view at 13 that point in time was that the LPG system was 14 a pressure system and, as such, should have a written 15 scheme of examination which would include the tank, the 16 pipes and the end use equipment. 17 Q. Does that mean, Mr McCourt, that obviously prior to the 18 experience of these events it was your understanding 19 that as a pressure system the LPG supply installation, 20 including the tank and the pipework, was subject to 21 a certification process which would be separate from any 22 risk assessment? 23 A. Yes. A written scheme of examination is a bit like the 24 occupational hygienist coming in to do the specialised 25 monitoring. I would expect a competent person who did page 26 1 the written scheme of examination to be able to either 2 visually inspect or test by some means that the 3 underground pipe was in a suitable condition. 4 Q. We have had evidence at this Inquiry that at various 5 times the tanks, because they were changed from time to 6 time, were in fact subject to examination and 7 certificates of their condition were provided but not, 8 so far as we are aware, for the pipework. 9 Is that a distinction that you now understand that 10 might have affected your state of knowledge at the time 11 because you assumed the pipework would be covered as 12 well the tank? 13 A. Well, I knew there was always a disparity between the 14 tank supplier, where his responsibility stopped and the 15 employer's began, and that's why when I mentioned this 16 previously in a meeting with the HSE I'd said that 17 I would have treated it as a pressure system and, as 18 such, I would have been looking for evidence of 19 a written scheme of examination to look at the full 20 system. 21 MR MARTIN: I have no further questions. His Lordship may 22 and others may. 23 MR MCBRIDE: I am grateful. Because of the way Counsel for 24 the Inquiry has approached this matter, I have no 25 questions for the witness. page 27 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for your evidence, 2 Mr McCourt. 3 (The witness withdrew) 4 MR MARTIN: My Lord, the next witness is Mr James John 5 Kincaid and his statement will be read as in the case of 6 previous witnesses by my learned friend. 7 JAMES JOHN KINCAID (read) 8 MR McBREARTY: Statement of James John Kincaid. 9 "Employment history. 10 "At 15 years of age I started my apprenticeship as 11 an electrician. At 21 years of age I served my 12 apprenticeship. 13 "On 18th March 1987 I started up my own company, 14 namely Boiler-Scot Limited. My company services, 15 maintenance and installs all heating equipment. It also 16 designs, installs and commissions energy management 17 systems. 18 "An engineer has to be accredited otherwise it is 19 illegal to work on any gas equipment. Every five years 20 an engineer must be accredited. An engineer must attend 21 a college and be trained and then tested both by written 22 examination and practical tests to ensure that the 23 engineer knows how to do the job. I sent my engineers 24 to Cardonald College to be accredited. It cost £1,700 25 per engineer for 5 days' training. I also attended this page 28 1 course. I also used to run a course on combustion for 2 the British Gas Council, now known as Transco. 3 "ICL Plastics Limited. 4 "My first involvement with ICL Plastics Limited was 5 when I received a telephone call from Bill Masterton who 6 said that he needed an oven to cure their products. 7 Curing is when paint is heated to make it stick to the 8 metal, such as on a car. Bill Masterton asked me to 9 come up and see him and said that he had a skip outside 10 that he wanted to make into an oven. He asked me if 11 this was possible. I went to see him." 12 If we could have up, please, pages 11797 through to 13 11801. If we could perhaps focus on 11797. 14 "I was shown a letter dated 29th November 1993 to 15 ICL Technical Plastic Coaters, Grovepark Mills, Hopehill 16 Road, Glasgow from J Kincaid Managing Director 17 Boiler-Scot. 18 "This is a quote detailing that our cost for making 19 this oven would be approximately £3,000 plus VAT. 20 I would have attended that week and looked at the skip 21 and said that we could make it into an oven." 22 Perhaps for the sake of completeness if we could 23 look at the following pages in turn, which I think, my 24 Lord, simply detail the plans for the making of the 25 oven. page 29 1 "Whilst on those premises Bill Masterton showed me 2 a small oven which I saw was being supplied by LPG gas. 3 I immediately observed the following faults with that 4 oven: 5 "(1) The door on the oven was open and the main 6 premises door was also open, therefore, any gust of 7 wind, which happened whilst I was there would blow out 8 the gas flame on the oven. Under the gas control 9 regulations there should be no flame when a door is 10 open. This is for safety reasons because it is 11 dangerous to the public or an employee. An example 12 being that someone could fall into it and also that it 13 is dangerous to be near chemicals. 14 "(2) As described above, whilst in these premises 15 the wind blew out that flame. I saw a man light a gas 16 poker with a match and then relight the oven. However, 17 he did not have to switch on the gas to relight the 18 oven. There appeared to be no safety device to close 19 off the gas when there was an interruption to the flame. 20 This meant that when the flame had gone out the gas 21 would have continued to escape and as LPG gas is heavier 22 than air, then this would have built up creating 23 a pocket of gas and would have caused an explosion when 24 lit. 25 "(3) I noticed that the flue that they had was page 30 1 inadequate. A flue is like an exhaust pipe in a car in 2 that it takes the products of combustion out of the 3 atmosphere and allows it to escape. I noticed that the 4 flue had holes in it because the metal was rotten. It 5 also just went out through the wall but had no chimney. 6 This meant that the fumes would then go up the building 7 and enter any windows above that were open. It should 8 have had a chimney that went up to the top of the 9 building to allow the gases to escape. 10 "I also saw tins. I am not sure what were in the 11 tins but I got the impression that they contained highly 12 flammable products inside. These tins were lying about 13 the ovens. There were five electrical ovens and the LPG 14 oven. This meant that, given the temperature of these 15 ovens, that they would create a build up of temperature 16 in the room which could be dangerous with highly 17 flammable products. 18 "Bill Masterton told me that I could service this 19 LPG oven after we had helped to build the new oven. 20 I replied that I would not service that LPG oven unless 21 he rectified the defects; namely, there should be 22 a switch on the door that ensures that when the door is 23 open the gas is switched off, they should fit 24 thermocouples to the gas burners which means that if the 25 flame is lost then this closes the gases off and it has page 31 1 to be reset prior to relighting it. 2 "I told Bill Masterton that if I was asked to 3 service it, then I would close it down and put a label 4 on it and inform the HSE that it had been switched off. 5 I would have done that because if it resulted in 6 a fatality then it would have been my company's 7 responsibility. I told him that I would not allow 8 Boiler-Scot to be responsible for something that was 9 unsafe. He said that he was a manager and he could only 10 take this to his director but I don't know if he did. 11 I told Bill Masterton that he would either have to pay 12 my company to get this oven operating safely or to go 13 and get another company to do it before we would then 14 take on the servicing of it. I did not put this in 15 writing to the company because I didn't want anything to 16 do with it. I did not report this oven to the HSE 17 because Bill Masterton indicated that the new oven that 18 we were going to build would result in the LPG oven 19 being phased out. In hindsight, I should have reported 20 the LPG oven to the HSE. We went ahead and built the 21 new oven for this company." 22 If we could have up, please, page 11849. 23 "I was shown an invoice dated 27th June 1994 to ICL 24 Technical Plastics Limited, Hopehill Road, Glasgow. 25 "This details that at this time the new oven was page 32 1 completed at the agreed price of £3,000 plus VAT. Our 2 involvement in that new oven had consisted of us 3 building the combustion side for the new oven. The oven 4 that we built was supplied by natural gas. The oven was 5 commissioned, which means it passed all the relevant 6 safety tests." 7 Could we have, please, page 11850. 8 "I am shown invoice dated 5th June 1995 to ICL Tech 9 plastics Limited, Hopehill Road, Glasgow from 10 Boiler-Scot Limited. About 5th June 1995 we supplied 11 three thermocouples. This was because the oven that we 12 had built was still under its year's warranty. 13 A thermocouple causes the flame to go out if the gas 14 goes out. It works similar to a central heating gas 15 boiler." 16 Could we have, please, page 12155. 17 "I am shown a Boiler-Scot Limited engineer's report 18 dated 14th June 1999." 19 Your Lordship will see the date is towards the 20 bottom right-hand corner of that sheet. 21 "At that time, my company was contacted by ICL 22 Technical Plastics because there had been a fire in the 23 Stockline Plastics building, which is the building with 24 the apex roof. They asked us to check the gas line for 25 the natural gas as they could smell gas. page 33 1 "On 14th June 1999 my two engineers Tom Crossan, 2 Billy Dean and I attended and shut off the natural gas 3 at the meter. We then carried out a soundness check to 4 see if there were any leaks in the pipework. This is 5 done by putting compressed air or nitrogen into the 6 pipework until it reaches 1 psi on the electronic 7 pressure gauge. Psi is a measurement of pressure. The 8 compressed air is then switched off and we start timing 9 how long it takes for the pressure to drop. If the 10 pressure drops, then it signifies a leak. At that time 11 the pressure dropped, signifying a leak. 12 "At that time we were introduced to a director by 13 Bill Masterton. I can't remember the director's name. 14 I told the director what was required. He replied that 15 he would get his engineers to check for the leak. I 16 advised him to check for the leak using fairy liquid. 17 "We then attached a label to the natural gas meter 18 stating that this should not be switched on by 19 unauthorised personnel. The label is attached to the 20 meter by a piece of string. It informed the customer 21 that they cannot use the natural gas. However, this 22 label is not applied in such a way that the customer 23 cannot switch the gas on. The gas can simply be 24 switched on by the customer by use of a lever. There is 25 nothing to stop it being used. A long time ago, I put page 34 1 a padlock on a meter but got into trouble for this. At 2 the time I had been commissioning boilers for NEI. 3 I attended a hospital and noted that the grills in the 4 hospital should be at the bottom rather than at the top 5 because LPG is heavier than air. A man from the Gas 6 Board told me that it was okay for the grills to be at 7 the top. I released some LPG gas and then dropped 8 a match on it and it ignited. Had the grills been at 9 the bottom, this would not have happened. I therefore 10 put a padlock on the meter. I did this for safety 11 reasons to stop them using the gas until the grills were 12 in the correct place. However, I got into trouble for 13 that from NEI. 14 "As well as attaching the above-mentioned label to 15 the natural gas meter at ICL Technical Plastics, we also 16 issued a warning sheet with it. The warning sheet is in 17 three parts. One part goes to the customer, one part 18 goes to HSE and the other part is retained by our 19 company. Basically this is notifying HSE that the 20 natural gas should not be switched on until such time 21 that they receive a clearance notice from an engineer. 22 "I remember that on 14th June 1999 when I attended 23 to do the first soundness test at that time I saw the 24 LPG oven for the second time. I observed that they had 25 a new flue pipe but that it still just went to the page 35 1 outside wall. At that time I ignored the problems with 2 the LPG oven because I was more concerned with the 3 natural gas leak. That was the second and last time 4 that I saw the LPG oven." 5 Could we have page 12158, please. 6 "I was shown Boiler-Scot Limited's engineer's report 7 dated 25th June 1999." 8 Again, the date is seen towards the bottom 9 right-hand corner. 10 "On 25th June 1999, Tom Crossan re-attended on his 11 own. He completed a soundness test and observed that 12 the pipework was still leaking. He found that the 13 repairs had been carried out using the wrong fittings. 14 There was no electrical bonding or pipe sleeving and 15 that the pipework had not been identified. By being 16 identified, the pipes should be either painted or 17 stickers applied to the pipework in order that anyone 18 such as the Fire Brigade would be able to instantly 19 observe what the pipes contained. At that, time Tom 20 Crossan placed another warning notice on to the natural 21 gas meter. Again, this report would have been in three 22 parts and one part was sent to the HSE detailing these 23 incorrect repairs." 24 Could we have up, please, pages 12156 and 12157. 25 "I was shown Boiler-Scot Limited invoice dated page 36 1 25th June 1999 and attached engineer's report dated 14th 2 June 1999 and 25th June 1999. 3 "This details our charge of £206.80 for the 4 above-mentioned visits when soundness tests were 5 completed." 6 Could we have up, please, page 12159 and also 12160. 7 "I was shown Boiler-Scot Limited's engineer's report 8 dated 28th June 1999 and 30th June 1999 and Boiler-Scot 9 Limited engineer's report dated 28th June 1999, 10 30th June 1999 and 2nd July 1999." 11 I think for clarity, my Lord, that the documents 12 come in the order in which I mentioned them there, the 13 first report dated 28th June and 30th June is page 12159 14 and the report with the further date of 2nd July 1999 is 15 at 12160. 16 "On those dates Tom Crossan and I attended at ICL 17 Technical Plastics. At that time, we instructed ICL 18 employees on the best method and materials for repairing 19 the gas pipework. On 2nd July 1999, we carried out 20 a soundness test, which again failed. 21 "I was shown [at 12161, please] Boiler-Scot Limited 22 engineer's report dated 7th and 8th July 1999. On 7th 23 and 8th July 1999 Tom Crossan and I returned to the site 24 to do another soundness test. This being after ICL had 25 carried out repairs. On both those dates the gas line page 37 1 failed again. At that time a director, I cannot 2 remember who, asked us to measure up for new pipes and 3 new joints, which we did." 4 Could we have, please, pages 12162 and 12163. If we 5 could perhaps focus on 12162. 6 "I was shown a letter dated 12th July 1999 to ICL 7 Tech Plastics, Hopehill Road, Glasgow from J Kincaid 8 plus attached diagram. 9 "On 12th July 1999 I submitted a quotation detailing 10 that our cost for fitting a new gas line for the natural 11 gas would cost £4,700.72 plus VAT using weldings or 12 £3,100.28 plus VAT using premafix fittings. ICL Tech 13 plastics did not reply to this letter. 14 "Attached to this quotation is a plan [and perhaps 15 we could have 12163] showing the route of the natural 16 gas from the Stockline building leading into the 17 adjacent building. The part of the building in 18 Grovepark Street is not shown in this diagram." 19 Could we have, please, page 12392. 20 "I was shown a letter dated 15th October 2002 to ICL 21 Tech Limited, Hopehill Road, Glasgow for the attention 22 of I Mavers from J Kincaid. About 15th October 2002 23 I attended at the site. On that occasion I entered the 24 building at, I think, Grovepark Street. At that time 25 Ian Mavers took me to the radiant tubes which serve heat page 38 1 to the factory works. I then submitted the 2 above-mentioned estimate detailing the cost to service 3 the radiant tubes would be £120 per unit plus any parts 4 required and VAT. I did not receive any reply from 5 them. 6 "Pipes for LPG oven. 7 "I was asked if I recall the condition of the LPG 8 pipework. I only observed that these pipes looked to be 9 going underground. This was not a concern as long as 10 these pipes were welded, which avoids deterioration such 11 as from the weather or vibrations. 12 "Codes of practice. 13 "Most of the companies that I worked with were 14 associated with Associations such as CORGI. By law you 15 have to be regulated by such a company. CORGI carries 16 out checks on jobs to ensure that we have done the job 17 properly. I have no knowledge of any codes of practice 18 issued by the industry. 19 "Warning notices in relation to gas appliances. 20 "When I issued a warning notice on 25th June 1999 it 21 would have been placed on the main inlet gas valve 22 (emergency stop shutoff valve). In order for a customer 23 (sic) to start reusing the gas, they would have been 24 issued with a gas safety certificate. This can only be 25 issued by a registered engineer who completes the page 39 1 certificate and provides that consumer with a copy. 2 "I have provided the police with a blank copy of 3 a safety certificate. I would like to clarify that 4 a warning notice is only tied to the meter. There is no 5 device to stop the consumer turning the gas on when the 6 engineer has left the building. The engineer on 7 completing and issuing a gas safety certificate would 8 send a copy to the Health & Safety Executive. 9 "I confirm the contents of this statement are true." 10 MR MARTIN: My Lord, the next witness is Mr Paul McClintock. 11 PAUL McCLINTOCK (called) 12 Examined by MR MARTIN 13 Q. Mr McClintock, you have, I think, a copy of the 14 finalised version of your Inquiry statement and 15 I understand that you are content to read it to the 16 Inquiry and I shall interrupt you from time to time just 17 to ask some additional questions. So if you would, 18 please begin reading at paragraph number 1. 19 A. "I am currently Group Commander, Operations and 20 Development, North and South Ayrshire Area of 21 Strathclyde Fire & Rescue. I have worked for the Fire 22 and Rescue Service for 31 years. I have progressed 23 through the Fire Service from firefighter, to leading 24 firefighter to Sub-officer Fire Prevention Officer, to 25 Station Officer and Fire Safety to Operational Station page 40 1 Officer to Assistant Divisional Officer and to Group 2 Commander. 3 "I recall attending the ICL premises in either 1993 4 or 1994. I was a sub-officer attached to A Division 5 working as a Fire Prevention Officer based at York Hill 6 Fire Station near Glasgow. I was a member of a project 7 team which was responsible for reviewing and 8 updating/amending existing fire certificates for the 9 various premises within the A Division area. This was 10 conducted under the terms and requirements of the Fire 11 Precautions Act 1971 and involved visits/inspections of 12 premises, notifications to owners/occupiers of necessary 13 requirements to fire safety procedures and systems and 14 ultimately amendments to the fire certificate 15 documentation and building plans. These are CAD 16 drawings. 17 "I went to amend the fire certificate for the 18 premises. A fire certificate was amended if it was 19 out-of-date due to material alterations or if there was 20 a change to the use of the building or in the 21 owner/occupier. At that time a certificate would have 22 remained valid unless any of the above criteria or the 23 number of persons populating the building had changed. 24 I visited the premises by myself." 25 Q. Does that mean, Mr McClintock, that if, for example, page 41 1 a factory, an industrial enterprise, is carrying on its 2 activities within a building and it has a fire 3 certificate for the appropriate measures being taken and 4 these are complied with and it continues to trade in 5 exactly the same way, the number of employees doesn't 6 change, the processes do not change, then it does not 7 anybody any further fire certificate over a period? 8 A. No, the fire certificate will remain in force while that 9 premises was still operating as it was. 10 Q. Thank you very much. 11 Paragraph 4. 12 A. "The process has changed with the Fire Scotland Act 13 2005. The onus is now on the owners/occupiers of 14 premises to prepare a written fire risk assessment 15 focusing on the use of the building, the construction 16 and the potential of a fire occurring. On attending the 17 premises, the Fire and Rescue Service can now ask to see 18 the fire risk assessment. It is not, however, sent to 19 the Fire and Rescue Service." 20 Q. So does that mean if you or your colleagues decided to 21 carry out an inspection on particular premises then 22 under the Fire Scotland Act 2005 there ought to be in 23 existence a fire risk assessment and you have the right 24 to ask and have a look at it? 25 A. That is correct. page 42 1 Q. Thank you very much. 2 Paragraph 5, please. 3 A. "I am shown a copy of the Fire Precautions Act 1971 4 amended, fire certificate pertaining to ICL Plastics 5 Limited Grovepark Mills, Hopehill Road, Glasgow 6 certificate number A/84 and ICL Plastics Limited. The 7 fire certificate premises file case notes. I see from 8 these documents that I conducted an inspection visit to 9 the premises of ICL Plastics on 21st September 1993. 10 I have a vague recollection of the visit. The premises 11 are one of hundreds that were due to be amended in the 12 Divisional area at that time. There was a project team 13 set up to amend the fire certificates. I knew the area 14 that ICL Plastics was located as I was brought up in 15 that area." 16 Q. Can I ask you just to pause there, please. 17 Could we have document 11835. 18 Is that the first page of the fire certificate you 19 were refer to? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. We see that it is dated -- there is a stamp at least at 22 the bottom -- 05 January 1994. 23 Is that the certificate that was then -- the amended 24 certificate that was then issued after your visit? 25 A. That's correct. page 43 1 Q. We can see at the top it is certificate number A/84, 2 there are various details including the occupier, ICL 3 Plastics Limited, and the premises, Grovepark Mills, 4 Hopehill Road, Glasgow, and then the use or uses of the 5 premises covered by this certificate, factory and 6 offices. Then: 7 "It is hereby certified ..." that is in accordance 8 with the certificate and we can see for ourselves the 9 references to means of escape in case of fire, means of 10 fighting fire, the sort of things one would expect to 11 see in a certificate like that? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. Then in item 2 we see the requirements in schedule 14 number 2 are hereby imposed and item 3, the plans, key 15 plan and schedules attached hereto all form part of this 16 certificate. 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Then on the following page we can see -- if I could have 19 at 1036, please -- a page headed "Certificate number 20 A/84 amendments". We see the date of amendment 21 20/12/93, fire certificate amended to take cognizance of 22 (1) alterations to premises, (2) alterations to 23 plan drawings and the authorising officer is yourself? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. That amendment obviously is what has resulted in this page 44 1 amended certificate being given? 2 A. That's correct, sir. 3 Q. Then there are various other items that I think you can 4 take as read setting out all sorts of details and all 5 the things that one might expect. 6 Could I ask you to look at the plans, please. 7 Could we begin at 11847, please. 8 I am starting in this order deliberately, 9 Mr McClintock, for reasons we will come to in a moment. 10 This is the plan and we see at the bottom right-hand 11 corner that it forms part of certificate A/84 and the 12 date of issue is 5th January 1994 and it was redrawn in 13 December 1993. 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Is this an example of a CAD -- which I think is computer 16 aided design -- drawing of the type you have talked 17 about? 18 A. Yes, that's correct. 19 Q. Can we see that going from the top of the drawing as we 20 are looking at it, the third floor plan is simply 21 entitled "Dead storage" and I think we understand there 22 was not much, if anything, happening on that floor of 23 the building? 24 A. At the time that's correct, sir. 25 Q. If you look to the left in the witness box can you see page 45 1 a model of the building which has been created following 2 the disaster and do you, obviously, subject to the fact 3 that the face has been taken off so we can view the 4 interior, what is at the rear of the building is not 5 shown in the model, do you recognise from that model the 6 building that we are talking about? 7 A. No -- I dealt with that many premises. 8 Q. If we look at the third floor plan, towards the 9 left-hand side of the drawing we have, do we see 10 a little rectangular addition which appears to have 11 a representation of stairs in it and obviously there is 12 a door, presumably a fire safety door, opening out on to 13 the stairs? 14 A. That's a means of escape stairway, that's correct. 15 Q. If you look at the model, and I know you cannot remember 16 the building first hand, but if we look at the model do 17 we see on the corner closest to you and the witness box 18 and beside a representation of the sliding gate there is 19 a stairwell which is, in effect, an addition to the main 20 body of the building? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. If we also look in the plan towards the other end of the 23 building (that is to say, the right-hand side, what 24 would be the east side on the ground), can we see 25 a larger extension from the main rectangular building page 46 1 which is slightly irregular but a little bit -- taking 2 a little distance along from the east or right-hand wall 3 of the building there is another staircase and it is not 4 shown on the model but it would be behind the model. 5 A. Yes -- 6 Q. Is that right -- 7 A. I think that's correct, yes. 8 Q. Again, simply from your technical point of view we can 9 see that stairwell and it has an opening door on to it. 10 Again, would that suggest that was a second means of 11 escape in the event of fire with appropriate 12 precautions? 13 A. The stairways are identified by A and B for the 14 purposes. You may see an A in the bottom corner and 15 a B. So that's how we identified the staircases so if 16 we had any particular issue with any staircase we could 17 identify it by its A or B. 18 Q. That's very helpful, Mr McClintock. 19 I have to say my eyesight did not manage to show 20 that to me. We can see that on the form. 21 Presumably that applies down the levels? 22 A. Straight down, yes. 23 Q. If we then go below that we see the second floor plan 24 and we know it was used as an office. Clearly the 25 drawing indicates that it was divided into a reasonable page 47 1 number of office and other rooms on that level? 2 A. Yes, that's correct. 3 Q. We can see the left-hand or west-hand stairwell, which 4 is B, and we can see towards the east on this occasion 5 just to the left-hand side a training room, again at 6 this level eastwards or stairwell letter A? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. If you then go to the previous page, please, which is 9 114846. 10 This is the first floor plan. Again, it is related 11 to the same fire certificate and can we see that the 12 footprint, as it were, of the building is slightly added 13 here because towards the upper side of the plan there is 14 a rectangle which, in part, has the legend "Area over 15 workshop"? 16 A. Yes, I see that. 17 Q. We understand, Mr McClintock, that was in fact 18 a separate building constructed in the 20th century, 19 I think steel portal framing with brick and a pitched 20 roof which was actually an addition or used as an 21 addition to the brick Grovepark Mills? 22 A. Yes, that's correct. 23 Q. That would be consistent with what you said and within 24 it there was obviously a stair caged area and various or 25 two stairwells, probably just for that building alone, page 48 1 but again can we see at first floor level "stairwell A", 2 which was to the right-hand side of the main part of the 3 building, and "stairwell B", which is the little 4 addition to the bottom left-hand corner? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Then go to the previous page, please. 7 Am I right that this is a representation of the 8 ground floor of the same building but for some reason -- 9 and this is no criticism, Mr McClintock -- it has been 10 represented in the plan the other way round? 11 A. Yes. For some reason, yes. 12 Q. Is it possible to turn it round through 180 degrees, 13 please. I am sorry, it is now upside down. 14 I think it is fairly straightforward because if we 15 look at the building again upside down, we can see 16 obviously it is the ground floor so there are elements 17 on the outside which were not in the previous upper 18 levels. Taking from the north side, that is to say the 19 top of the drawing when it is turned upside down, there 20 is a yard which I think opened on to Grovepark Street? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. We can see elements related to the rectangle, which was 23 the factory addition at ground floor level, which we saw 24 on the previous one, the roof at first floor level. We 25 can see to the right-hand side or eastern side of the page 49 1 building the stairwell letter A, again with other 2 elements including a generator room? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Then to the right-hand side of that, east on the ground, 5 adjacent premises. We can see the main part of the 6 ground floor of the mills building and we can then see 7 stairwell B, which is the stairwell again in the tower 8 adjacent to the opening on to Grovepark Place and, of 9 course, at that point there is also a yard which you can 10 see on the model. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Can we confirm, Mr McClintock, that these are the only 13 drawings, at least at that date, related to the fire 14 certificate of the floors of the building and that in 15 particular there is no plan showing any basement 16 anywhere? 17 A. That's correct, sir. 18 Q. We will come to that in your statement in a moment. 19 Could you carry on, please, under the heading "Fire 20 certificate amendment procedure", paragraph 6. 21 A. "I note that the original fire certificate was numbered 22 A/84. I have no knowledge at to when the original was 23 issued. 24 "I cannot recall the inspection itself or the 25 company employees that I dealt with. page 50 1 "I would have entered the drawings (sic) with a set 2 of drawings. Pre-1993 these drawings were 'skin 3 drawings', (they were hand drawn). Post 1993 these 4 drawings were transferred on to CAD. I would have 5 walked through the building, taking notes of any changes 6 to the building not noted on the fire certificate. 7 Under the previous legislation, unless there were 8 alterations to the buildings there was a restriction on 9 what we, as fire personnel, could have asked owners to 10 do. Sometimes we brass-necked it and asked for certain 11 things that owners may not strictly have been required 12 to do so under the legislation but that we felt were 13 required in the interests of safety. I do not recall 14 this being necessary in the ICL premises. I have no 15 recollection of ICL being difficult to deal with." 16 Q. When you say that the former skin drawings were 17 translated or transferred on to CAD, is that something 18 the Fire Service did? 19 A. The Fire Prevention Officers, we had to do the drawings 20 of the buildings ourselves in the old days and then when 21 we got the CAD operators, we transferred these to the 22 CAD operators and they done it and transferred it over. 23 Q. But it wasn't something done by the occupier and 24 given -- 25 A. No, not at all, the Fire Service officers. page 51 1 Q. Paragraph 9, please. 2 A. "During the inspection we would ensure that the 3 owner/occupier tested the fire alarm, emergency lighting 4 and ensure that the escape routes were maintained. We'd 5 also check that the existing fire fighting equipment was 6 being serviced and maintained we would also ensure that 7 staff instruction and training was being carried out and 8 that this was being recorded." 9 "I am asked if I considered LPG pipework as part of 10 an inspection. LPG pipework is a process and would not 11 fall within the remit when inspecting a building. We 12 would consider the building and how the building is 13 used. We would make sure that escape routes are safe, 14 check the fire alarm equipment, escape lighting and the 15 log book and staff instruction and training on fire 16 safety." 17 Q. Forgive me, could I have, please, 12213. I am sorry 18 that is my fault. Could I have 12299. 19 Could you read paragraph 11 and we will look at that 20 document, Mr McClintock. 21 A. "I see from the log case notes contained within the 22 premises file that as a result of the above inspection 23 visit on 4th October 1993 I issued the company with an 24 FPA4(i) form, which is a notice specifying alterations 25 to be made to the premises following my inspection, in page 52 1 pursuance of section 8 of the Fire Precautions Act. A 2 coy of the client alteration schedule is contained on 3 the premises file and relates to the alarm system, signs 4 and notices and firefighting equipment." 5 Q. If we stop at that point, please, if you look at the 6 document which is on the screen, it is a printed form -- 7 I am sorry to say I cannot read the top. 8 What is it called? Installation -- memorandum, is 9 it? Inspection memorandum. 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. Is this, as it were, a log document that was filled in 12 by the fire officer when he carried out some relevant 13 task? 14 A. We refer to it as a case file sheet. At the time we 15 would inspect a premises you would mark it up why you 16 are in the premises and so forth. 17 Q. I think there is no dispute that this relates to the 18 premises in question. We can see in September and 19 October 1993 beginning there, there are varies entries. 20 Were you responsible for these? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And that is your -- 23 A. That's my handwriting. 24 Q. -- handwriting at the end? 25 A. That's correct. page 53 1 Q. So the first reference appears to be September 1993 and 2 I apologise that the copy of this document, the actual 3 day has not been included but I do not think it is 4 particularly critical. 5 Was that an initial visit that you made on that 6 occasion? 7 A. That's a visit I made to inspect the premises, yes. 8 Q. Is that in order to find out what was necessary in order 9 to amend the fire certificate? 10 A. In effect, right, and especially on the premises, yes, 11 to amend. 12 Q. Then the next entry is the entry of October 1993, which 13 is 4th October 1993, section 8 requirements issued; what 14 does that actually mean? 15 A. That's after I have, in effect, carried out the 16 inspection. That's what I'm telling the owner occupier 17 they require to bring the premises up to a satisfactory 18 standard and that can vary from fire alarms to fire 19 equipment to tests and staff training instructions and 20 so forth. 21 Q. Is that the FPA4 (1) form that you refer to in paragraph 22 11? 23 A. That's correct, yes. 24 Q. I am sorry, I do not have the number of that to hand. 25 There is an error in the witness statement but perhaps page 54 1 as we proceed if that can be identified and we can come 2 back to it to confirm the document you are referring to. 3 Read on, paragraph 12, please. 4 A. "These requirements were low key. On a scale of 1 to 10 5 with 10 being major concerns with a building I'd rated 6 these requirements as a 2. 7 "The company had until 4th January 1994 to comply 8 with these requirements. I see from the premises file 9 log/case notes dated 9th December '93 that the Fire 10 Brigade receive a letter from the company confirming 11 that the outstanding requirements were complete. On 12 20th December 1993 I recorded that an amended fire 13 certificate was being prepared and this was issued on 14 5th January 1994. Although it is not explicitly 15 recorded in the case notes I would have personally 16 visited the company on 5th January to deliver the 17 amended certificate and only after a walk through the 18 premises to check that all the alterations had been 19 done." 20 Q. Are these two items recorded again on the log sheet, 21 that is to say the letter received in December? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. The amended fire certificate being prepared and then on 24 a date in January 1994, again, I think it is 4th, 25 amended fire certificate issued -- I am sorry, I cannot page 55 1 read the next word? 2 A. That's just my initials. 3 Q. Yes, there is something between it. If you have at the 4 very bottom line: 5 "Amended fire certificate" -- 6 A. It's today, today. 7 Q. That is when you would have gone. I assume that given 8 the nature of what you required related to the alarm 9 system, signs and notices and firefighting equipment, it 10 would be fairly straightforward for someone of your 11 experience to see that these things had been done? 12 A. Yes, in relation to a building of that size and 13 magnitude, it was fairly low key. I had to recognise 14 it's obviously Christmas and New Year holidays and so 15 forth; so that's why there's a short time-span on 16 issuing requirements to have them complete by. 17 Q. So are you saying, Mr McClintock, the question was that 18 the company was pretty efficient in dealing with the 19 requirements in doing what you required in bringing this 20 particular amendment to an end? 21 A. It's very unusual a company would actually write to us 22 and tell us that they had complied with the 23 requirements. Invariably, the Fire Service at the time 24 would have to issue extensions of times to certain 25 owners and occupiers. But looking at the timescale page 56 1 there between September -- sorry, October I issue my 2 requirements and getting a letter in December that -- it 3 wasn't an every day occurrence. 4 Q. I am much obliged to my learned junior. If we could go 5 back, please, to 12313 -- 6 THE CHAIRMAN: We will stop there for five minutes or ten 7 minutes, Mr Martin. 8 (12.00 pm) 9 (A short break) 10 (12.17 pm) 11 MR MARTIN: Thank you, my Lord. Could I have up 12313, 4 12 and 5, please. Is that, Mr McClintock, the FPA4(i) form 13 which you are referring to? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. It has been served 4th October 1993. Could I also have 16 12309, please. Is that the letter that you were 17 referring to which ICL had sent to the Fire Service, the 18 Divisional Commander, A Division, signed by Mr Stott 19 confirming that the actions required on the FPA4(i) 20 4th October 1993 had now been completed in the timetable 21 stated? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Could you return to your Inquiry statement. I think you 24 have in effect dealt with what you said in paragraph 14 25 and indeed 15. Could I ask you to resume at paragraph page 57 1 16, please. 2 A. "As part of the amendment process, I would have had the 3 Fire Brigade CAD drawings pertaining to ICL Plastics 4 premises updated. A copy of the plan with the required 5 alterations marked in red would have been sent to the 6 company along with FPA4(i) form and amendment schedule. 7 Later, when these alterations were confirmed, the CAD 8 plan would be permanently updated to include these 9 alterations. 10 "My only involvement in this site was in 1993/94 (as 11 above) until 11th May 2004 when I was involved in the 12 rescue operation." 13 Q. Now, turning to Fire Service documentation, just before 14 you begin reading, could I have up on the screen, 15 please, 12301 and 2 and if you just begin reading at 16 paragraph 18, please, Mr McClintock. 17 A. "I am asked to explain the differences between an FPA21 18 form and an FPA22 form. An FPA22 form was issued 19 following a routine inspection and it confirmed that the 20 fire precautions were satisfactory, at the time that the 21 form was issued. An FPA21 form was issued if the fire 22 precautions were unsatisfactory. 23 "I am referring to the FPA22 issued to ICL Plastics 24 Limited on 8th August 2001. This does not refer to my 25 visit but is an example of an FPA22 form." page 58 1 Q. Obviously it was issued some years after your last 2 involvement with the premises but it is just to give an 3 example of what an FPA22 form looked like. 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And it was served on ICL Plastics Limited. Carry on, 6 please, number 20 -- 12303 and 4. Carry on with 7 paragraph 20, please. 8 A. "I am shown a Fire Risk Categorisation Form dated 3/8/01 9 in relation to ICL Plastics Limited. This does not 10 relate to my inspection and was not completed by me. 11 I am asked to explain the purpose of this form. This 12 form was utilised to determine how frequently the Fire 13 Service required to carry out routine inspections on the 14 identified premises. This was assessed on a points 15 rating basis. The Fire Service's workload was massive 16 and this provided a means of prioritising the 17 re-inspection of certain premises. The higher the 18 number of points, the more regularly the premises 19 required to be inspected. This was completed at the 20 same time as a routine inspection." 21 Q. I think we can see that the Inspecting Officer on this 22 occasion was S Smith. Is that Mr Steven Smith? 23 A. I have no knowledge. I never met him. 24 Q. He is in fact the next witness, although he has not been 25 asked to come and actually give evidence because it is page 59 1 not disputed. 2 Could I have 12296 and 7, please. If you read on 3 paragraph 21, please. 4 A. "I am shown section 1(i)(d) inspection report. This 5 does not relate to my inspection. This was completed to 6 allow the local fire stations to familiarise themselves 7 with the hazards on the identified premises so that in 8 emergencies the station were aware of the hazards on 9 site. This has now been as superseded by VMDS (Vehicle 10 Mounted Data System)." 11 Q. If we could just look at this, please. This is a form 12 and towards the bottom of the first page, there is 13 a risk potential and there is a PDA code and inserted is 14 the word "3". What is the PDA code? 15 A. That makes reference to the number of appliances that 16 would be mobilised to the premises if there was an 17 incident. 18 Q. Then the next says grade and figure 2 premises. what was 19 that -- 20 A. That just related to the use of the building, primarily 21 a factory and so forth. 22 Q. So this, in effect, is planning in advance in the event 23 of a call out to the Fire Brigade what -- 24 A. If we received a call out to ICL Plastics, the control 25 room would mobilise an appropriate response and that page 60 1 would be three appliances: two pumping appliances and 2 a hydrogen appliance. 3 Q. Under the heading of "hazards" there are all sorts of 4 symbols and some of them are ticked, such as compressed 5 gas, flammable liquid, toxic and flammable gas. That 6 again is just the result of an assessment of what is on 7 the premises for the benefit of those who might have to 8 go and attend an emergency? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. When you say that it has been superseded by the Vehicle 11 Mounted Data System, does that mean presumably with the 12 advance in computers or whatever that each appliance has 13 the ability to call up similar details? 14 A. We have what we refer to as operational risk 15 intelligence. That form, the 1(i)(d), was rather -- you 16 can probably see by the plan 1(i)(d) drawings only ever 17 refer to the ground floor and so the fact that this 18 building has possibly ground, first, second, third, 19 1(i)(d) drawings were somewhat dated. So we introduced 20 what we called operation risk intelligence where we now 21 effectively do the risk assessments on these premises 22 and we put them into three-dimensional drawings and then 23 as and when we respond to an incident, if we have 24 carried out a risk assessment on that premises, we can 25 in bring that premises up site so that every vehicle, page 61 1 every fire appliance attending can bring up that 2 information on site. 3 Q. But if we go back to the system as it was on the plan, 4 we can see a representation of the ground floor level, 5 including yards and other buildings that we did not see 6 previously, but in particular if we look to the yard, 7 which is to the right-hand side of the plan as we look 8 at it, just in the acute corner of the yard there are 9 two rectangles with the words "LPG" which presumably 10 suggests that it was done when there two LPG tanks in 11 that location? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Would there be anything unusual about seeing that on 14 a plan such as this? 15 A. Again, the 1(i)(d) is primarily for front-line response. 16 It would only give you some chance or indication if you 17 had an incident on that site that there's LPG. Whether 18 it would be involved, that would be down to a dynamic 19 risk assessment but also chance but it was just an 20 indication that there is LPG on that site. 21 Q. Could I have 11845 again please. This is the one that 22 could be rotated through 180 degrees. 23 Could you begin reading again, please, at paragraph 24 22. 25 A. "I am asked about the basement at Grovepark Mills page 62 1 premises. I cannot recall there being a basement and 2 have no knowledge of it whatsoever. 3 "I have referred to the CAD plan contained in the 4 fire certificate for the premises which I had a CAD 5 operator update with the section 8 alterations in 6 December 1993. The plans refer to the ground, first, 7 second and third floors only; there is no reference to 8 a basement. As these plans existed for a number of 9 years before my involvement with the company, I cannot 10 with any authority explain why a basement should be 11 excluded. In my view, a basement would only have been 12 omitted from the plans if the area was unused and some 13 form of permanent barrier, eg, bricked up wall or 14 boarded up access was present. In these situations the 15 basement may have been considered to be outwith scope of 16 the fire certificate. 17 "I do not think I would have missed a basement. 18 I do not recall seeing anything that looked like 19 a bricked up stairwell leading to a basement. I do not 20 recall seeing anywhere that would have led to a basement 21 during my inspection." 22 Q. Just pause there, if you would, please. If we look at 23 the drawing with the stair tower adjacent to the yard as 24 it is towards the bottom of the drawing turned through 25 180 degrees, and the model is closest to you at the same page 63 1 point, the understanding based on the evidence, 2 Mr McClintock, is that that stair tower did include 3 steps going down which then opened into the basement 4 level. 5 A. Mm-hm. 6 Q. I mean, you have been quite candid; you say you simply 7 cannot recall. What would have been your reaction if 8 you had noticed that the stairwell went down to a level 9 apparently below? 10 A. Invariably in these type of premises what has happened 11 beforehand is sometimes you could be informed by the 12 owner occupier it wasn't used or there was restricted 13 access. If access was gained, we would have gone down 14 to the basement. There was no reason why we shouldn't 15 have included it in the fire certificate. 16 The basement would only have gave us concern if 17 there was somebody working down there purposely all the 18 time. If it was only required for desk storage or for 19 the purposes of maybe some switch-on plant or machinery, 20 then it wouldn't have been a direct concern to us as 21 long as there wasn't anybody working down there at all 22 times. If so, we would have been looking for two means 23 of escape from that basement and would have included it 24 in the fire certificate. 25 Q. I am going to ask you to read paragraph 25 and then ask page 64 1 you about what would have been the position if the 2 basement had not been sealed off but you had been told 3 that nobody worked in the basement. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. If you read 25 and expand on that. 6 A. "I am asked if the basement was used for storage if this 7 would be included in the fire certificate. If it was 8 used for permanent storage and then sealed off, then 9 I do not think it would constitute part of the fire 10 certificate. If it was used for storage which was 11 accessible, then I would expect it to be included in the 12 fire certificate. If people were accessing the area it 13 should form part of the fire certificate. 14 "I am asked if I was aware of a prohibition no, that 15 was placed on the basement by the Health & Safety 16 Executive in 1976. I did not know about this 17 prohibition notice." 18 Q. Could I have 11218, please. We can see, Mr McClintock, 19 this is a prohibition notice -- slightly cut off from 20 the top but I hope that is not a problem -- which was 21 served on Stockline Plastics Limited who at the time 22 were one of the occupiers of the Grovepark Mills former 23 mill building. We can see that in the middle of this 24 left-hand side of the document as reproduced notice is 25 given that the inspector in question was of the opinion page 65 1 that the following activities (namely, the use of the 2 basement as a storeroom and/or work room) which was 3 being carried out would involve and I think we know from 4 other evidence that it was an imminent risk of serious 5 personal injury. Then the reason given lower down is: 6 "... because of the inadequate means of escape in 7 case of fire for persons employed in the basement." 8 I take it from your evidence that you were simply 9 unaware of this document until you began to be involved 10 for the purposes of the proceedings following the 11 disaster? 12 A. Totally unaware, sir, yes. 13 Q. Leaving aside the issue of whether or not this 14 prohibition notice might either have been complied with 15 or superseded or recalled, if the prohibition notice had 16 remained in existence, is it something for which there 17 was a mechanism whereby the Fire Service would be 18 informed of the existence of a notice, given that it is 19 specifically relating to an inadequate means of escape 20 in case of fire? 21 A. I have never known the Health & Safety Executive to 22 inform us. In relation to the basement, we would have 23 been at liberty ourselves, if we knew someone was 24 working within that basement, to issue the exact same 25 format prohibition notice on occupiers if we knew page 66 1 someone was actually working within the basement. As I 2 said, it was only for the purposes of maybe dead storage 3 or someone to go down and switch on plant, occasional 4 use. But as a workplace we would not have accepted 5 that. So we would have issued our own requirements 6 which would have resulted in either asking them to 7 provide an alternative means of escape, which may have 8 been difficult, or we have put some form of prohibition 9 on the occupier's ourselves. 10 Q. Perhaps if I just ask you to read 27 and 28, please, 11 Mr McClintock. 12 A. "I am asked how the Fire Service would be notified of 13 a prohibition notice on a building. Unless the 14 Health & Safety Executive notify the Fire Service and 15 a copy of the prohibition notice is put on the Fire 16 Brigade's file, then we would not be aware of such 17 a notice. We had a requirement to consult with building 18 control regarding the structural control of a building 19 but there was no such arrangement in place with the 20 Health & Safety Executive. If Fire Safety had concerns 21 about a building, they might contact the Health & Safety 22 Executive but this is on an ad hoc basis. There is no 23 formal policy in pace. An example of where this 24 occurred was in Farnell Street in relation to Scottish 25 Adhesives. I was working with John Ironside on this page 67 1 case and the Health & Safety Executive were alerted. 2 "Had the Fire Service been notified about 3 a prohibition notice, then this may have alerted us to 4 the existence and, more importantly, the use of 5 a basement in the building." 6 Q. You have referred to Scottish Adhesives. Perhaps for 7 the benefit for those of us at the Inquiry not familiar 8 with the details, that is presumably a quite separate 9 circumstance, if you would just describe it to us. 10 A. Scottish Adhesives were based in Farnell Street, half 11 a mile from this location from ICL Plastics and they had 12 a fire a few years ago which resulted in a couple of 13 fire deaths. At that time, myself and Mr Ironside were 14 inspecting premises. These were old massive works fire 15 certificates that had been transferred over to the Fire 16 and Rescue Service. 17 Under the health and safety laws, schedule A, if 18 there had been no material structural alterations in the 19 premises then there was very, very little that we in the 20 Fire Service could actually do to actually bring these 21 premises up to standard. However, on this occasion we 22 were concerned at the storage of some materials that 23 they were using within the site and we contacted the 24 Health & Safety Executive to inform them we thought it 25 was a factory process. page 68 1 Q. But that, as you explained, was simply because of the 2 individual circumstances not because of a system of 3 an -- (overspeaking) 4 A. -- yes, sir. That's correct. 5 Q. We have also heard from a witness on behalf of the 6 Health & Safety Executive -- Mr McGoldrick -- that with 7 effect from 1977 the former responsibility of the 8 Health & Safety Executive in respect of matters such as 9 this concerning a fire escape -- and I am looking again 10 at the prohibition notice which is 11218 -- 11 responsibility for that was transferred from the 12 Health & Safety Executive to the Fire Service. 13 Do you have any comment on that? 14 A. Well, that's correct. As I said, a lot of these 15 premises were transferred over to the Fire and Rescue 16 Service. They were old factories that had certificates 17 or office shop premises certificates. They were 18 transferred over en masse, so to speak. What we had to 19 do then was effectively get them updated or amended Fire 20 Precautions Act certificates. This would involve us 21 issuing requirements and that was only as and when we 22 could do so. A lot of the times, as I said, we asked 23 for things that legally probably we weren't duly bound 24 to ask for but we did it in the interests of safety. 25 Q. But despite that transfer of legal responsibility, there page 69 1 was no mechanism for existing prohibition notices or 2 similar documents like this to be transferred over or 3 notified to the Fire Service? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. So you simply went out and did what you then had to do 6 from first principles? 7 A. Which was amend the existing fire certificate, yes. 8 MR MARTIN: Thank you very much indeed, Mr McClintock. 9 Please remain in case his Lordship or others have any 10 questions. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McClintock, there are no questions for you 12 and I have none either -- just a moment. Would it be 13 possible for there to be a copy of the plan that was 14 attached to the amended fire certificate? Could that be 15 copied? Does Mr McClintock have one? 16 MR MARTIN: Is this the one, my Lord, that Mr McClintock 17 indicated had some in red which was then accepted? 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 19 MR MARTIN: I do not know if I could -- 20 A. No, I don't think we have that, sir. But it would be 21 easy to -- the requirements were quite basic in relation 22 to that sort of thing. So it would be very easy to 23 identify what were the things I asked for on that, if 24 that would assist you. 25 MR MARTIN: I think what we have is the CAD drawing before page 70 1 the Inquiry. That is the ultimate output of this 2 exercise. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: I wonder if it would be helpful if we could 4 have a better version of that. 5 MR MARTIN: It may be, my Lord, given that Mr McClintock is 6 here, if he is able to assist, if you could on the 7 drawings that we have, Mr McClintock, just identify 8 where the changes would have been. If we want to have 9 11845, 6 and 7 again before you, together with the 10 actual amended certificate which begins that -- 11 A. Do you need my requirements, the FP4 requirements -- 12 Q. The FPA form is 12313 to 5. If you can in the 13 background hold the drawings, please, for the witness 14 and if we can have 12313 to 5 which is the FPA4(i) 15 notice. May I assume that it the annex -- 16 A. 12314 and 12315. 17 Q. If we can get these up so that they can be read with 18 ease. To be fair to you, Mr McClintock, I do not want 19 you necessarily to do it on the hoof so if you want 20 a few moments to do this ... 21 A. It would be very hard to be specific in relation to -- 22 as you can see by number 1, it says: 23 "The existing fire alarm system should extend to the 24 provision of two plate glass call points as indicated on 25 the attached sketch." page 71 1 Ground floor factory area and second floor office 2 area. Now, as long as there's only -- there's not two 3 or three break glass call points on the ground floor 4 factory area, I can't be specific actually as to what 5 the limit was. 6 Q. On the drawing that went out to the FP, they would have 7 been in red? 8 A. They would be in red. The trouble with this factory is 9 it was an old factory, an old fire alarm system and we 10 were asking for an additional fire alarm system so it 11 was an up-to-date standard. In some of the older 12 factories, there was a Code of Practice pending on old 13 fire alarms bringing in a new system. So you had to be 14 specific to say to the occupier, "I want the call point 15 there on that staircase on that specific area". 16 Q. Presumably, Mr McClintock, if we look at the ultimate 17 output of this, if you have 11845, the ground floor, 18 this will show by that stage all the call points that 19 installed without distinguishing which are the new ones 20 and which are the original. What is the key for that? 21 A. The call points -- it's like a dart, a bill sign. That 22 would be a call point circular. If you go to stairway 23 B, there's an example. Stairway B: you see the circle? 24 Q. Stairway B -- 25 A. Down. No, next to the triangle. That is next to the page 72 1 triangle. That is the fire alarm call point. 2 Q. There is a triangle there which presumably means 3 something else -- DP? 4 A. That's a dry powder extinguisher. The circle itself 5 would depict the call point. So that's a break glass 6 call point just as you probably have in this hall 7 somewhere. 8 Q. If we look at this floor, and presumably the same on 9 other floors, we can see the same symbol in various 10 other places. 11 A. Break glass call points are normally always on an exit 12 route or close to an exit route. One of the 13 requirements, as you can see in the factory, there's 14 like an eye. It's a symbol -- just above the "F" in the 15 word "factory". That was the visual warning device that 16 I asked for. Obviously it was a process risk, rather 17 noisy; a fire alarm going off, individuals wearing ear 18 defenders obviously may not be in a position to hear the 19 alarm so we asked for a visual warning device to be put 20 in there and that's -- 21 Q. Is that a bright flashing like? 22 A. That's a beacon. Effectively, it gives them a visual 23 warning that the fire alarm is let off. 24 Q. If you want to go back then to the FPA4(i), please, 25 which is 12314, the next item is additional sounders and page 73 1 the next item, number 3, is visual alarm signals which 2 is what you have just been talking about. Presumably 3 there is a symbol for a sounder as well? 4 A. Yes, there is. Again, if you could go back to the 5 drawing, I can give you -- 6 Q. 11845, please. 7 A. If you just look in the right-hand centre of the main 8 factory, it's just that little dome, very heavy set 9 black -- that's it. That's the indication for 10 a sounder. So they would be situated again throughout 11 this factory. 12 Q. 12314 again, please. Item 4 is the siting and 13 installation of the equipment to comply with 14 a particular standard and 5: 15 "The attached installation report form with regard 16 to part A should be completed and returned to the 17 office." 18 These are not anything on the plan? 19 A. Those effectively we gave to the occupier because at the 20 end of the day, we required a fire alarm engineer 21 company that specialised in this type of installation to 22 install the equipment. If not, then sometimes you get 23 occupiers doing it themselves and it defeated the 24 purpose. The installation quote form was transferred 25 back on to the fire certificate. So, in effect, that page 74 1 became part of the fire certificate itself. 2 Q. The next one under the heading of "signs and notices" at 3 6: 4 "The exit doors indicated by a red E on the attached 5 sketch to be marked by the exit site with words 'fire 6 exit' placed above the door. The lettering in the sign 7 should be in white block capitals not less than 75 mm", 8 et cetera. 9 Again, if we could have 11845 please, I can see at 10 various exit doors, Mr McClintock, the capital letter 11 "E" and a square? 12 A. That's a fire exit sign. 13 Q. Again, some of these might have been in red at this 14 stage -- 15 A. Some would have been in red, yes. 16 Q. 12314, please. 7 is: 17 "Doors indicated N3 in red should be provided with a 18 'fire door keep shut' sign." 19 You will have to help me as to where that is. 20 A. More than likely if you look at stairway A, this related 21 to cupboards and areas that had enclosures and 22 stairwells like storage rooms and so forth. That's it 23 there just above the call point. That indicates that 24 effectively that's a protected route and any storage 25 within it should be protected. The door would have to page 75 1 have fire resistance and always ask that the door was 2 kept locked shut so that no-one would inadvertently 3 leave something open, a fire would start in the stairway 4 enclosure and that takes the stairway out. 5 Q. That would most likely have been in red? 6 A. That would have been red as well. 7 Q. Back to 12314, please, item 8: 8 "The final exit doors indicated N5 in red on the 9 attached sketch should be clearly indicated outside with 10 a sign" and again and so on. Presumably we would 11 find -- 12 A. Those are external doors; so that they will be final 13 exit doors coming out from one of the staircases. 14 Q. If we go back looking at the drawing and this 15 orientation -- 16 A. As you look at the yard, if you go to the yard and you 17 probably see just above 2.00 from the "D" of the word 18 "yard", you will see N5. So this was to prevent any 19 vehicles, cars, skips, so forth getting blocked up 20 against the door. So to use that as an exit route, then 21 the door would fully open outwards in the direction of 22 travel. 23 Q. Back to 12314, please. Item 8: 24 "Doors indicated PB in red on the plan require to 25 have a notice indicating the method of operation ..." page 76 1 and so on. 2 Again, we can see some doors with PB. 3 A. Again -- 4 Q. On that drawing, towards the right-hand bottom corner. 5 A. That's it. The same door. That's it. 6 Q. PB. 7 A. The reason for that sometimes people would put snips and 8 padlocks and things like that and it's required for a 9 means of escape so it had to be (inaudible) closed with 10 a key. 11 Q. 12314 again please and I think 12315 is the next page: 12 "Fire alarm system. The undernoted portable 13 appliances should be provided inside as follows ..." 14 And extinguishers and so on. Again would that be 15 indicated on the drawing? 16 A. That would be indicated. That might be quite easy to do 17 that on the ground floor factory area and probably you 18 can see it there, the W. Just above the stairway 19 enclosure, you'll see a W and a DB. You would have 20 wanted a water extinguisher to be sited in there. 21 Q. W obviously means -- 22 A. W is water. DP -- dry powder . 23 Q. As your evidence has already indicated, once the Fire